Spare me of this cost, give me back what I lost

cclee.JPG

Well, what are you rooting for in Game 1 of the World Series tonight?

CC and the Yankees?

Cliff and the Phillies?

A rainout?

Sudden, irrevocable blindness?

Indians GM Mark Shapiro, the man who helped make this scintillating Cy Young showdown possible, is just as torn as you.

“It’s bittersweet,” Shapiro said of the matchup. “You don’t work in this game without building a personal attachment to guys. So I look out there and see those two guys, and, as people, I’m excited for them. I’m excited for them to show their talent on that stage, I’m excited for them to get that type of exposure.

“And yet I’m bitter that they’re not doing it in the Indians uniform.”

I have a hunch that bitterness is shared by the CastroTurf Commenters. Let’s hear your thoughts.

63 Comments

I’m definitely leaning towards Lee. CC was in Cleveland longer, but he couldn’t help but choke in the playoffs a number of times before finally figuring it out with the yanks. Speaking of that, he’s a Yankee, and as a breathing, moral human being i can’t possibly root for him. Now, Lee did wait until 2008 to start ruling at baseball (can you imagine if he was that good in 2007!?!?), but his season is a lot more memorable to me than CC’s in 2007. Also, the egregiously horrible trade the Tribe made in giving Cliff away made me angrier upon his departure.

Bottom line, I dislike both teams, but I hate the yanks more. Go Cliff!

I am rooting for Cliff Lee big time. #1 fan. Also hopefully Benny can hit a pinch-hit home run or something.

I guess some of it can be called bitterness, but there are two reasons I don’t like CC. One is, that as was pointed out, while in Cleveland and Milwaukee, he forgot how to pitch in the playoffs, and now all of the sudden he is winning ALCS MVP’s. Would have been nice if you could have done that two years ago! The other reason is that CC was supposed to be the nice guy, the guy who came up through Cleveland, loved it and everyone there. He was a genuinely nice guy, who I really believed cared more about the Indians doing well, than himself. When he went to New York, he sold out, and I hate that term, but he did the one thing I think someone can do to be a sell out, which is to do something you genuinely don’t want to do just for money. Maybe I would have done the same thing, it’s hard to say, but he made it clear, he didn’t want to go to New York, he wanted to be in the NL, he wanted to be out West, but eventually the money got too high and he couldn’t say no.

On the other hand, we all knew Cliff cared more about himself then the team probably. But it was okay, because he always had that personality. I mean, he wanted to be successful, and he didn’t care who he was going it for, he just happened to be in Cleveland. And I admire what he did last year, to not just put 2007 behind him, but put it as far behind as possible by winning a Cy Young. I love watching him pitch. He is an amazing pitcher, and I wish him all the success in the playoffs and in his career. I wish we could have kept him, but I understand the moves that were made, and it is wwaaayyyy to early to judge the Cliff or CC trades.

But for the next couple days, while I am not really rooting for the Phils to repeat, I am definitely not rooting for the Yankees to win. So, Go Cliff and Ben!

How could you possibly go for someone due to statistics and team, im sorry i disagree with you broten. Personally i am going for CC, despite his faults in the playoffs, its not like he planned doing bad or knew he would choke. He just tried and ended up failing, its not his fault. Second of all, CC was more connected to Cleveland than Lee was, CC started his career here, worked to his level where he is now thanks to the Tribe and learned about baseball here too, he even sent a thank you letter to all Cleveland fans, and was quite emotional during his departure…Lee never did. As a fan looking beyond statistics, i will root for CC. PLUS – why hate the yankees, we already ruined their opening day at the new yankee stadium, blew them out 21 – 4 or something like that in game 3, and ruined their playoff run in 2007. HEHE bug game!

I’m rooting for Cliff solely on the basis of the article that came out a few days ago, where CC laughed at the Indians and their situation. But I really want neither pitcher to win. Maybe both pitchers will be knocked out in the first, and we won’t have to put up with this for very long.

I am going to continue the trend. Go Cliff, Benny and the Phillies! This is getting old very fast. I am glad that they were Indians, but it hurts that they are their in another uni. C.C’s last comment also bugged me to death like he didn’t care and none of what happen in the past was his fault. I can’t wait for this world series to be over and all of this former Indian crap to end. When is it Cleveland’s Time?

You can’t blame the Indians for CC. He was just greedy and wanted every last cent he could get. He would’ve gotten all the money a human being would’ve wanted at the Indians but he turned it down. He’s just greedy and obviously didn’t like the Indians as much as he claimed.

For what it’s worth, if I’m playing for the Indians and getting offered a measley few more million per year to play for the Yankees, I turn it down easy. I already have more money that a single human life can make use for, and I’m playing for a team I love.

As for Cliff Lee, we probably just did him a favour. He obviously couldn’t stand the team, and didn’t make favourable comments about the Indians fans after he left, so he got what he wanted.

There’s really no question here. As a Tribe fan, I can’t even consider cheering for the Evil Empire!
I wanted CC to lose, but not necessarily fall on his face, until I read his recent comments. His playoff success this year is because of “the players behind him.” Right, CC. Your failure in 2007 had nothing to do with the big choke by the guy on the mound.
Good luck, Cliff!

Lee, if only because CC is a Yankee. I personally like CC better and he has better “stuff” but Lee is better right now and a smarter pitcher (by a little). I just hate anything wearing pinstripes.

Too much hating on CC. He did his best when he was here, which most of the time was pretty damn good. Yeah, I wish he’d have pitched better in the playoffs but I’m also sure he does to. I would root for any team over the yankees, although boston is tough. I was actually hoping to see Torre beat them, with Casey getting a ring. Would have been nice.

Go Cliff, go Charlie, and Benny too.

One other thing, ny outbid everyone for CC, by a lot. By so much that they essentially outbid themselves, by a lot. No other team can compete with that at the end of the day. Cliff will likely get his too, though nothing like CC, unless of course he goes to ny.

I think it is interesting how both of these guys were put in similar situations during their time with the Tribe. Each has seen the ugly side of fans as well as the praise for winning the Cy Young.

In ’05 (I think, maybe it was ’04) CC was booed off the field for a terrible game he had. He proceeded to leave the game kicking and screaming, literally, launching a string of profanity at the fans behind the dugout. Albeit this was “young” CC (when he was still rockin’ the crooked cap), but still, not an excuse. Cliff was also booed off the field in ’07. He mockingly tipped his hat to the crowd (immature, perhaps, but a hilarious gesture nevertheless and one that won me over as a Lee fan). Not really proud days for Indians’ fans.

That being said, I can’t blame either of these guys for not wanting to stay in Cleveland. Particularly Cliff. If he hadn’t won the Cy Young, how many of you would claim to be Cliff Lee fans? Where were you in ’05? He won 18 games then. Finished 4th in Cy Young voting. And still it wasn’t until 2008 that he really entered fans’ radar. CC was always a favorite, and overshadowed the rest of the rotation. Even now, as a Yankee, Tribe fans are torn whether to root for him or not. It’s The Evil Empire people! Isn’t that rule #1 in the Tribe fan handbook, “Never root for the Yankees. Period. End of Discussion.”?

I know I sound like I’m bashing Cleveland fans. I’m not. I’m one of you. I just think we shouldn’t be so quick to judge. CC was treated like royalty, so he responded by thanking Cleveland fans when he left. Cliff was ignored, and thrown back to AAA with jeers, and then out of the woodwork came Lee fans when he lauched his comeback. Can you blame him if Cleveland fans are not his favorite people?

For fans, I agree, this is bittersweet seeing CC and Cliff in the World Series. For years, every fifth day, they were my boys, its tough seeing them pitch for other teams. But, I don’t blame these guys for not sharing in our pain….. they are in the World Series after all.

Everyone gets booed in Cleveland. I often don’t like it because it is often very stupid, but that’s life. I wouldn’t like it either if I played for the home team, but again, that’s life. They are easy targets for frustration. Vizquel, Sandy, Thome, Manny, Charlie Nagy! have all been booed here (the list could easily go on). Hell, do any of you doubt that Bernie was booed at the old stadium at some point? That’s us for better or worse, the highs are really high and the lows are really low. And we’ve had more of the lows than any of us wants to think about.

Vizquel has never been booed in Cleveland because he never said anything stupid about wanting to stay and then going to the highest bidder.

Lee, and anyone who needs reasons need to look no further than the article on the Yahoo! Baseball page. The Tribe tried to get C.C. to agree to a deal before the ’08 season and he turned them down. Once the season started (his last), he refused to discuss a new deal. I’m not saying C.C. was determined to leave (had we gone to the post-season again in ’08, who knows?), but he was clearly determined to entertain other offers.
Lee, on the other hand, went TO the Tribe FO to talk about a new deal TWO YEARS before his current one is up. They refused, not wanting to discuss it that far out (which I can understand). But Lee clearly wanted to stay.
On a personal level, it’s Lee, although I do like C.C. well enough. But regardless, again — it’s the YANKEES. Anyone who picks them over any other team in baseball is confused.

I love Omar but he was booed for boneheaded base running mistakes. I’m not justifying it, but I heard it with my own ears at the ballpark. Our crowd at the games boo our own players at times, just the way it is. We booed Dave Burba when all he did was put his heart and soul into our team.

Oh, I thought you meant players who leave and come back with other teams.

Cliff Lee makes as much money as Nick Swisher. Sabathia made more money this year than Lee’s made in his career. That’s why I hate the Yankees, and thus CC by association. At least the Lee trade might give the Phillies a World Series win, which would make the trade sort of worth it to me, a Yankees loss being the second best thing in baseball, after an Indians win.

Who gets booed in Cleveland? I’ve been to a fair amount of games in the last couple of years and the only game were I remember a significant amount of booing was directed at a relief pitcher during the Texas game in May 2008.

Mostly, the team has been so mediocre that the fans can’t even muster the energy to boo, because they can’t imagine themselves looking at a team that should be winning. In 2008 I must have been to 8 or 9 games and saw just one 1 win. Two wins if you count the last 3 innings I saw in a first game of a double header in the last game of the season when Eric Wedge went out with a wimper.

I meant 9 games in 2008 ^

well I have to hand it to you AC. You sure know how to instigate a verbal argument. Perhaps it is the double shift I just got off working (yes, I am so dedicated to the CastroTurf that my last few posts came while I was at work) or it is the cheap Miller High Life coursing through my blood now that I’m off (12-pack for $6.69 baby!) but in all honesty, after a game like this with all the known apsects to it, this is a question better left until after a night of sleep. Seriously. Asking this question is like when one of your boys asks you about your ex-girlfriend after a recent break-up. If you initiated the break your response is calmer in comparison. Conversely, if she kicked you to the curb then proceeded to verbally abuse you while stepping on your twig and berries then your opinion is different.

Personally, I cannot root for the Yankees and therefore by association, not CC. Lee wasn’t an angel when he was in Cleveland either so lets not kid ourselves. IMO my anger is two-fold and still resides with one person and a group of individuals: I blame Mark Shapiro for making this a reality and I blame the so-called fans that didn’t get their kiesters to the darn games. Mark Shapiro is responsible for the contracts, dollars wasted, and dismissals of David Dellucci, Travis Hafner, Roberto Hernandez, Aaron Fultz, Brandon Phillips et. al.

In retrospect, would we all have preferred CC over Hafner + Westbrook? Umm, YEAH. But no one could have predicted both of their injuries. Little sidenote here: Mark Shapiro did not negotiate Jake Westbrook’s contract b/c Westbrook’s agent is Shapiro’s father. Antonetti did that. You can complain all you want about the Dolans being cheap but a little bit of perspective would go a long way to those of you who suggest that things should be different. Call it apathy. Call is frustration and depression. Call is OIC, only in Cleveland. But the bottom line is the responsible individuals are the fair weather fans that want everything but contribute nothing.

Great post AM, you should think about having a few beers before you post more often. And I didn’t know the bit about Westbrook’s contract… that’s a good point.

thanks pigeon. And while it may be a quality rant it fails in comparison to your AC injury post.

I root for Cliff for one reason…

If CC had signed a contract after the stellar 2007 playoff run… Where would we be now??

CC would be signed long term.
Cliff would win the ’08 Cy Young.
We’d still have both, forming the best 1-2 punch in all of baseball and maybe one of the best duo’s since Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling.
We would not have traded Victor Martinez.
We’d still have Blake, and if not, then DeRosa.
We’d still have Garko.
We’d still have Betancourt.
We wouldn’t have Carlos Carrasco.
We’d still have a young core.
We wouldn’t have Tomo Ohka.
We’d probably contend adleast in 2010, and likely a few years beyond then too.

In a way, you could blame CC Sabathia and his agent for not signing a contract that would’ve prevented the downfall of dozens of trades and dismantling of a team that had been together primarily since about 2004/5. He was the big domino to fall, not that I can fault him for taking big time money and years, but if he really was a Cleveland man, then he would’ve, right?

I root for Cliff for one reason…

If CC had signed a contract after the stellar 2007 playoff run… Where would we be now??

CC would be signed long term.
Cliff would win the ’08 Cy Young.
We’d still have both, forming the best 1-2 punch in all of baseball and maybe one of the best duo’s since Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling.
We would not have traded Victor Martinez.
We’d still have Blake, and if not, then DeRosa.
We’d still have Garko.
We’d still have Betancourt.
We wouldn’t have Carlos Carrasco.
We’d still have a young core.
We wouldn’t have Tomo Ohka.
We’d probably contend adleast in 2010, and likely a few years beyond then too.

In a way, you could blame CC Sabathia and his agent for not signing a contract that would’ve prevented the downfall of dozens of trades and dismantling of a team that had been together primarily since about 2004/5. He was the big domino to fall, not that I can fault him for taking big time money and years, but if he really was a Cleveland man, then he would’ve, right?

Not to derail this thread or anything, but Keith Law had his chat today and I couldn’t help but notice this exchange:

Jon V. (Cleveland, OH)
What’s your opinion on the Acta hiring? Any chance he’d be willing to start the year with Santana behind the dish? That certainly had no chance under Wedge.

Klaw (1:21 PM)
He’s a progressive guy – I expect you’ll see plenty of prospects get opportunities Wedge wouldn’t have given them.

That’s good to hear — here’s hoping Marte gets a real look, along with Brown.

Sorry about the double post…

Also, I think I gotta stop hating on Big Bad Tomo Ohka, he was always there when we needed him. In fact, if we had a one game playoff against the Twins to win the Central division, it wouldn’t be easy to pick between Sowers, Carrasco, and Ohka. Ohka is Ohkay.

I can see why Shapiro is happy, he felt like he did his job preparing these guys for the big leagues. He must be as proud as a minor league manager watching his former players make the big time…after all, we are just the farm system of the rest of the league.

irishmm, I for one am happy we do not have Blake, Garko, Derosa or Betancourt. If CC not signing after ’07 led us to trade Blake for Carlos Santana, then we should give CC a prize … LACF it will be interesting to see if they do give Santana a shot to earn the job in spring training, I’d bet that if they give him a chance he’d win it easily. I wonder if McBride being moved back to catcher and apparently handling it in the Arizona League will make them more willing to move Marson in the offseason

Hey guys, Buster Olney of ESPN did an interesting piece on this Lee and Sabathia, in which he interviewed Carl Willis about them both. Here is some Q and A from it, but if you get a chance check out the whole thing. It is in his blog on ESPN:
Q: Who is more competitive, Sabathia or Lee?
A: They’re equal in different ways. That’s a tough question. Let me answer it this way — I’ve always said that if I had two guys ready to fight me, and I could take one guy from the entire clubhouse along with me, it would be Cliff Lee.

Q: Who has better pure stuff, Sabathia or Lee?
A: CC does.

Q: Who has better command, Sabathia or Lee?
A: I’d have to go with Cliff.

Q: Who is the better athlete, Sabathia or Lee?
A: CC is an unbelievable athlete. Things come a little easier for him athletically.

Q: Who is the better hitter, Sabathia or Lee?
A: CC hits for more power; Cliff will hit for the higher average.

Q: Who is the better pitcher …

No, just kidding. I wouldn’t ask Willis that question. It was clear he didn’t want to be put on the spot.

He just talks about his attachment to the two guys and how weird it is to see them in this position, pretty good stuff in my humble opinion.

While I obviously have no say in the matter, I thought about Lovullo being a part of the Tribe coaching staff and, in the end, I think it would be a good thing.
Now, on one hand I wondered if having a guy on the staff who knew most of the players might interfere with Acta’s ability to do his job, but Lovullo seems like a pretty fair minded guy, and I don’t think he’d undercut Acta.
That being the case, Acta having a guy on his coaching staff who DOES know these players would seem like a great bonus.
And I know people are eager for Santana to hit the majors, but, personally, I’d rather he start the year in Columbus. I really worry about the Tribe pushing the young guys up to quickly and ruining them.

I read a few minutes ago that the Indians outrighted three players from the 40-man roster, including Niuman Romero who was called up in September unlike Jordan Brown. And I read that Jordan Brown will be in Venezuela for winter ball as previously announced. And I read previously that Jordan Brown will be exposed to the Rule 5 draft in December. Here’s an open letter to Manny Acta–let Mark Shapiro know that you want Jordan Brown on the 40-man roster. There’s room. Two-time league MVPs and International League batting champions don’t come along to the Indians that often. Santana is being championed for the jump to MLB based on two-time league MVP. Brown did that and is the IL batting champion! Who blackballed Brown? Wedge? Niuman Romero was worth a September call-up (?)–why not Jordan Brown? Get real! These are the baseball people who didn’t find a place for Brandon Phillips–how long has he been playing 2b and batting clean-up for the Reds? Add Jeremy Guthrie, Luke Scott, etc. Who was the number 1 pick either before or after Guthrie? Which major club is he helping? As to the current Indian OF situation–Sizemore has had surgery, LaPorta has had surgery, Choo may have a military obligation to Korea, Crowe was injured, Brantley was a surprise at the major league level, and yes Brown was injured in 2008 followed by the batting championship in 2009. Manny, check this out!

Brown will almost certainly be added to the roster. They usually wait until November to add players though.

with AC on vacation is guess it is up to the Castronauts to provide the topics of discussion.

Having watched the World Series games this year does anyone else think that Charlie Manual has lost two games himself? I am not bashing on Charlie b/c he used to be in Cleveland and is now successful. Nor do I think that Joe Girardi is out-managing him during the games. But I do think that Manuel’s decisions have severely cost his team. He left Cliff Lee out there in game 1 for the 8th and 9th inning when the score was 4-0 and 6-0, respectively. I know he’s got a shaky bullpen but 122 pitches thrown cost you the chance of bringing Lee back for game 4 and potentially game 7. He chose Pedro Martinez in game 2. Fine, I wouldn’t have but when you let Pedro start the 7th inning and don’t pull him immediately after getting a runner on, that was two mistakes. It’s obvious that Cole Hamels isn’t right but that’s not Charlie’s fault. But starting Joe Blanton for game 4 simply b/c he’s a righty? Ugh.

I realize that the World Series probably isn’t the time for alternative thinking but Ryan Howard is struggling and Jayson Werth is raking. Split up the lefty-lefty combination of Utley-Howard-Werth by flip flopping the two of them. Yes, that gives you a L-L combo in Howard and Ibanez but neither one of them is hitting over .190 for the series. Heck, you can bump Ibanez down to 7 and move up Feliz if you want to avoid the L-L order.

Yes, Lee pitched a lot in Game One. I think that was a mistake. I’m sure he wanted to go the distance, but in the World Series, you almost have to have a three man rotation anymore; your ace being slotted to pitch the crucial Games 1, 4, and 7. I thought that Cliff being on the mound in that first game in New York, pitching a gem, and nearly shutting out the dangerous Yankee lineup, was going to be the trend-setter for the series. I guess Cliff can’t carry the whole team.
However, I think it’s obvious: Charlie doesn’t fully trust his bullpen. He left Cliff in to pitch all 9 in Game One (pitch count of 122), and left Pedro in longer than he probably should have. I’m not necessarily saying that this is the only issue. But if the bullpen was just lights-out, then why hesitate in taking out Cliff after the seventh or eighth (would have only been 106 pitches after eight, and 95 pitches after seven)?
As we can all remember this season, we had similar problems. At different points in the season, either the bullpen or the rotation was overly strained because the other was struggling. Which, inevitably will again put strain on the other all over again (when talking about a season as a whole). This is why I’ve always wanted a team built around solid pitching, both in the bullpen and rotation. Even with a slightly above average offense, (which ours isn’t really a heavy hitting lineup) I think a team can be successful. We’ll see if I get my wish one day.

I think it’s silly to let pitch count in the previous game even come into play when you’re deciding whether to start a guy on short rest. Is it really going to make a difference 4 days later whether he threw 14 more pitches? 106 pitches or 120? I don’t think so. (no way would I have taken Lee out after 7 innings, not against the Yankees lineup with the Phillies bullpen)If a pitcher doesn’t succeed pitching on three days rest it’s probably more of a mental than a physical issue. I’d guess that Charlie would’ve made the same decision if Cliff had only thrown 100 pitches, he figured Hamels would come through and he wasn’t sure how Cliff would react to an unusual work week. Personally I would’ve gone with Lee in game 4 after Hamels’ disaster even if I’d previously said Blanton would start, because even if they do recover and force a game 7, who’s going to pitch it? Hamels? … I did question sending Lidge out in the 9th last night, when he’s had such a terrible year. I’d have gone with Happ.

I though the decision to leave Cliff in was a fine one for a couple of reasons. First, to save the bullpen. Beyond Lee, Manuel had no idea what he was going to get from his other starters, so he needed to have all arms available for the other games.
Cliff has never pitched on 3 days rest and I think it would have been a waste to try it in the World Series. If he bombed, you’ve wasted him, as he wouldn’t go again. Honestly, the fact that Philly has 4-5 starters (if you include Happ) SHOULD have been the key to winning the series.
The problem, as AM pointed out, is their bats. C.C. should have been shelled last night — even Tim McCarver could he was off last night. And, strategically, that would have worked exactly as it should have for the Phillies, who now have a fully rested Lee going up against a Burnett who’s only on 3 days rest — and he’s really prone to getting shelled when he’s not in complete control of himself. They should at least be tied right now.

Also, if you count the signing bonus, the Yankees paid $21 million dollars for each of A-rod’s 2 WS hits. Parity at its finest!
The Yankees winning the world doesn’t underscore the great history of this sport, it underscores everything that’s wrong with it. Money might not determine who wins the World Series from year to year, but it definitely determines who ends up in the post-season.

Nah, I’m going to have to disagree. While, I’m generally not one to get too obsessed over a pitch count, I think that a 120+ pitch complete game is mentally and physically taxing, end of the season or not. Doing that potentially three times in one eight day period will most definitely have an impact on a pitcher. I think it could be part of the reason Cliff is starting Game 5, rather than Game 4.

I just heard one of the more stupid comments of this World Series. I think it was McCarver. Jose Molina had just broke his bat on one of Cliff Lee’s cutters, I believe it was. McCarver said something about Rivera’s cutters, and said, “American League batters just aren’t familiar with Cliff Lee’s cutter.” *brief pause* “Cliff Lee, uh, was with Cleveland, but he pitches so much different in Philadelphia.”

The pitch count didn’t matter — they were never going to pitch him on three days rest, even if he’d only thrown 90 pitches. There’s an article about it on Yahoo giving Lee and Manuel’s version of their conversation about it. The gist is that Lee has never done it before, so it was an issue of trying something that could fail or sticking with something they know works. Since they already knew Cliff was going to pitch Games 1 and 5 on normal rest, his pitch count in the first game didn’t matter — saving the bullpen did.
This game right now only adds support to what I said above. Last night was practically a must win for them against a very hittable C.C., because it was obvious the match-up tonight would be in their favor.
All that said, there’s still hope for them. Petite’s going to have to go on 3 days rest against a fully rested Pedro, and it’s clear that the Yankees bullpen is going to get a work out here tonight.

As far as pitch count goes, I am a big believer in the “stress pitch philosophy.” I know Nolan Ryan and the Rangers do their pitch count like this, and I can’t remember for sure but I feel like Billy Beane and the Oakland A’s do too. Basically, a pitcher is much more stressed when he is throwing with no one out and the bases loaded than he is with two outs and no one on base. These stress pitches take more of a toll on you mentally, and for starting pitchers the mental durability is a key component of making it through a game. Lee, if I recall, threw a six hitter. He didn’t have too many stress pitches, and therefore I think his 120 pitch count is a bit misleading.

And an announcer today made an interesting note about Lee pitching game 7. It would be his pitch-on-the-side day normally, and if they need it that’s a legitimate option.

The announcers just said Lee has never blown a lead when leading by five runs or more… is that true? I remember during his incredible 2008 year, he blew a huge lead against the Tigers at home. Only reason I remember is because he was already shutting down everyone he faced, so it was so odd to see him blow a game.

I will say this much — 8-2, over 100 pitches, 7IP: why send Lee back out? In theory, they’d love to have him available for an inning or two in a Game 7, yeah? Now he leaves after giving up 2 runs with no outs and a runner on second. I’m just really confused by that move. They don’t have a single reliever that could have come in? Heck, they don’t have one that could have done the same thing and saved Lee some pitches?

jk, thanks for the McCarver moron quote. I was at work and didn’t see the game on tv so I didn’t get to hear his wonderful soundbyte. Man that guess is a boob.

I must say that I agree with the analysis posed by pigeon on stress pitch philosophy. Additionally, if Philadelphia can somehow win game 6 then EVERYTHING we are talking about goes out the window. Game 7 is a different animal and previous pitch counts and stress levels go out the window. Lee would/will pitch in that game in some capacity ala Randy Johnson closing out for Seattle.

With Lee pitching into November now, I just want to point out how smart his decision to not pitch in the World Baseball Classic was. He saved himself some pretty crucial mileage. That was a really smart move.

ESPN’s Buster Olney is reporting that Manny Acta is courting Sandy Alomar Jr. for his coaching staff. The NY Mets don’t seem eager to let him go though. You have to like this move, if it were to happen, for the Indians for two specific reasons: (1) it brings back a popular, familiar face to Cleveland at a time in which public opinion is at a frustrating all-time low, and (2) his catching program is respected in the industry which could do wonders for a guy like Santana and Marson. Additionally, Paul Hoynes of the CPD has reported that Acta might select a balanced staff of internal and external candidates as Hoynes specifically mentions Nunnally, Lovullo, and Radinsky.

From everything I’ve heard about Radinsky I’d really like to see him brought in as pitching coach. I like the fact that he’s the singer in a punk rock band

AC, baby, come back. I didn’t mean what I said. Please come back.

at the moment I don’t know how I feel about Tim Belcher. It’s an internal promotion, eh. The Dave Duncan’s of MLB are few and far between so is this a good move? I don’t know. Right now I’m a little ambivalent over the move. I would still LOVE to see Alomar Jr. on this staff in some capacity given the young catchers we possess. If I were Scott Radinsky I might feel a little slighted by this move considering they promoted a “special assistant” rather than an actual pitching coach.

36 hours after the World Series and the baseball off-season is already underway. Using the argument that Cleveland can compete b/c they play in a terrible division is a faulty crutch. While most people do not expect Cleveland to contend in 2010 in any capacity one cannot ignore that moves are being made by our divisional rivals. The Twins got J.J. Hardy, Chicago traded for Mark Teahen and saved money by dumping Jermaine Dye, Kansas City got younger (Fields and Getz) and cheaper.

Tim Lincecum likes the Hippie Lettuce
Bobby Abreu got a healthy extension (2y-$19M)
Red Sox trade for Jeremy Hermida, ramifications for Jason Bay?
Brandon Webb’s $8.5M option picked up, is he a July 2010 target?
NY Mets are not extending J.J. Putz, the beginning to Minaya’ fall?

Come on people. Lets try to keep the CastroTurf going in AC’s vacational abence.

I will be cautiously optimistic about Belcher. Really, I have absolutely nothing to go on at this point. He has a lot of MLB experience, but no coaching experience….It could be interesting.
I’ll keep looking around for some more information. Maybe I’ll have an opinion shortly.

I don’t really know much about Belcher, I didn’t even realize he was with the organization. I was set on Radinsky, I’ve read numerous articles which said the Indians pitching prospects spoke very highly of him (it certainly seemed the AAA coach was doing something Willis wasn’t, with all of the guys who got sent down to the minors to get fixed, like Jensen Lewis, Cliff Lee, etc) , and it seemed like he’d bring a bit of personality to a rather bland team, which could only be a good thing. I guess one thing about Belcher is that everyone on the Indians staff other than Masterson and C Perez already worked with Radinsky in Columbus, and my opinion on hitting and pitching coaches is that there are only a couple who are actually big difference makers, and if you don’t have one of those guys, then continuity is a bad thing … If I were a GM, unless I happened to have one of those exceptional coaches, I’d change my hitting and pitching coaches every 2 years just to bring in a fresh set of eyes. … so using that theory, it might be better to have someone like Belcher who’s familiar with their staff but never actually coached them, rather than Radinsky

Ok folks, in an effort to break the lull (and to talk to someone about my Tribe obsession), do any of you think we might see Adam Miller pitch this year…at any level?

Way to go, jk. I was excited to see “53 comments” instead of 52 when I went to the blog today. I vote no. Last I heard, he was still recovering from his crazy finger reconstruction. I mean,if all go wells well, then MAYBE at singe A ball, but I am not even thinking of him from now on. I would LOVE to see him at some point in the next two years make it up to the big league bullpen… but I wouldn’t count on it. By the way, where is the easiest place to check out a players’ contract status? If I want to see how long we have… say… Asdrubal under control for, where can I see that? ESPN doesn’t really do much for it.

Unfortunately I do not see a place for Adam Miller on the major league roster whatsoever. We have so many other options on the 40-man roster as well as those not on the FMR that he won’t make any type of contribution. His injury was once described as career-threatening. Until he gets on the field for longer than a week, I’m treating it that way. But pigeon does make a decent point about single-A ball as being an option if only to see if he can stay healthy. I am interested in the Rule 5 Draft this year. I would think that Cleveland could be in line to lose more than one player.

I forgot about that pesky Rule 5 Draft… When is it again? And we discussed the whole Jordan Brown thing before, but what’s his status? Are we likely to lose him to this draft?

pigeon, gotta run to work but I will comment on my thoughts about the Rule 5 sometime afterwards. The draft is December 10 but the rosters have to be finalized by November 20. Brown is NOT on the FMR but my guess is that he will be. The Indians currently are at 33 players.

I think, from what I’ve read, Miller should be ready for Spring Training ’10. What that will actually mean when he gets on the field is another matter completely. And, longevity is another matter on top of that. The last time he pitched a complete season was 2006, was it not? However, he was such a dominant starter that year in ’06. I hope, for our sake and his, that he is able to make a comeback and salvage his career. I think if we see him at any level for a consistent length of time, it will be a step in the right direction.

Sounds good am, I look forward to reading your thoughts. Especially with a few Miller High Lifes in you, haha. We should have a high pick in the draft, which is nice. This will be our first good look at how the new regime will approach things.

I don’t think the Indians have too much to be concerned about in the rule 5 this year, after all most of their top prospects are already on the major league roster. If a team selects a player in rule 5 they have to keep him on their 25-man roster the entire year or they lose him, I can think of very few Indians prospects who aren’t on the 40-man who’d be ready to contribute for another team at the major league level … Jordan Brown obviously would be taken but I can’t imagine the Indians not adding him to the roster this month … they might need to protect some of the young pitchers, I think Carlton Smith, Frank Hermmann and Yohan Pino would be eligible, and should probably be protected, Lofgren would be but I’m sure they’d be fine with losing him and I doubt anyone would want him, other than Brown, only position player I can think of who could possibly be taken would be Matt McBride … if it came down to it they should certainly have McBride on the roster over Gimenez

I have a novel idea for the R5D. Leave Kerry Wood and Jake Westbrook unprotected. Worst case scenario is that someone actually takes them, albeit unlikely thereby relieving us of their contracts. As I mentioned we are at 33 which includes such questionmarks as Jamey Carroll, Kelly Shoppach, Chris Gimenez, Tomo Ohka, Jose Veras, and we could always bring back Winston Abreu for some comic relief. Lofgren was left off the list last year, as was Brown, and they weren’t taken. Brown certainly would be drafted but I doubt you could say the same about Chuckie three sticks. No one is going to promote McBride to the ML roster with only 361 ABs at the Eastern League level. ST does make one decent point about the pitchers at Columbus though. Zach Jackson, Scott Lewis, Rich Rundles, among others.

I could see someone taking McBride to potentially serve as a backup catcher at the big league level, he’s been crushing it in the AFL, and if someone had an opportunity to give him a try they just might … I wouldn’t be concerned about Jackson or Lewis, neither of those guys would seem to have a future in the majors. It actually sounds like Lewis’s career is done, that he has a chronic problem in his arm. Jackson isn’t very good. Rundles I believe was recently removed from the 40-man, they never seemed to think too highly of him. Who’re you worried about losing, AM? I feel like this is one year where the Indians don’t have to worry at all about the rule 5, because their best prospects, Valbuena, Laporta, Crowe, Marte, Brantley, Rondon, Carrasco, C Perez, Todd, Santana, are already on the roster, I don’t believe Wes Hodges, Josh Judy, Jeanmar Gomez and Brian Grening are eligible yet

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