Returns for Victor might be spoiled

According to the Boston Herald, the Red Sox rejected a one-for-one proposal of Victor Martinez for Clay Buchholz last week, which is not terribly surprising, and not just because Buchholz is so highly regarded.

I hate to burst the bubble of anyone hoping that a trade involving V-Mart will bring in another promising haul of prospects and somehow sweeten the Cliff Lee situation and the club’s earnest efforts to reload for 2011. But there are a few things to keep in mind about Martinez:

  • He turns 31 this offseason and has an injury history.
  • He’s never been highly regarded for his skills behind the plate in controlling the running game.
  • Yes, he can be moved to first base, but his offensive numbers as a catcher are much more valuable than his offensive numbers as a first baseman.
  • And regarding those offensive numbers, the guy has hit .193 since May 22 and .149 since June 20.
  • Last but certainly not least, Martinez will make $7.6 million next season if he’s traded (I had listed it at $7.5 million yesterday but forgot that Martinez earned an additional $100,000 for his All-Star selection). That’s a significant amount of money for a team to be taking on for his services, especially in this economic climate.

The Lee deal — or at least the Lou Marson portion of it — makes a heck of a lot more sense if Martinez is moved. But the Indians have basically made it clear to the rest of the league that they are slashing payroll for 2010, and that would be the prime motivation for moving Martinez. The returns for him won’t be anywhere near what they were for Lee, and the returns for Lee have already drawn scrutiny in the industry.

~AC

UPDATE: Just got word that Fausto Carmona will make his return to the rotation tomorrow night against the Tigers. Jeremy Sowers gets bumped from Friday to Saturday. 

20 Comments

I think most of us think Masterson would be more likely. And Boston makes points 3 and 5 work just fine, as Veritek only has a one year deal and they pretty much always have money.

I really hope they dont trade Victor. Dont you think it would be stupid? I dont really agree with trading Victor, at all.
http://tribechick.mlblogs.com/

Who were the Tigers & Rangers willing to deal for Victor?

Sorry, but after the previous trades with the Red Sox, and watching what the Spawns of Satin, Massachusetts Unit have acquired over the last two weeks, there can’t be much in it for the Indians… but is there ever?

Sorry, ‘satan’, not ‘satin’ … although I’m not sure what their fashion stylings are in Boston….

Payroll will be slashed until attendance improves!

Makes as much sense as “beatings will continue until morale improves.”

Honestly, it seems like 2011 is a safer bet, but it isn’t ridiculous to say the Indians can compete next year…keep Victor unless you do get a top-flight prospect for him…he’ll earn his salary next year and then some by getting people to come out to the park, not to mention as a mentor for these up and comers. It’s clear the guy’s heart is in Cleveland. A repeat of this year’s bullpen in ’10, and even the way the starters began the year, is unlikely (…impossible?), not to mention a lack of timely hits and flat out bad umpiring calls did us in… We have some studs ready to step in next year who can make an immediate impact, and now that some of the clusterFk is gone in the corner infield and outfield, players might actually understand what their role is and where they fit on the team, and thus be newly inspired. Last thing we want is to be at the AS break next year right in the thick of things thinking, “Uh oh. We need one key piece…whatever to do.”

“It’s one day. Half a day, really. I mean you subtract showers and meals, it’s like twenty minutes. It will go by like that. *snap*”

vic probably will probably only play for a couple more years, right? i mean, he’s thirty and he’s been a catcher his entire career, he’s obviously been worn down. would it be possible for the indians to offer him some kind of coaching or front office job in the future? maybe not front office, cause i don’t know what he could do there, but a coaching job for sure. one of his high points is that he’s a mentor to the up coming latin players. give him something to where he can stay around the team, because if he leaves for good that’s basically the face of your organization gone. he’s the only player that’s even expressed loved for the city and the organization, that’s so rare they’d better try and keep him around.

I am going to say, that I am thankful for one thing, and that is that the Indians Front Office made a decision, and is going all out with it. There are too many teams in baseball that have been teetering in this area where they are not quite rebuilding, but not quite giving up, and they often pay too much for veterans who aren’t going to change anything (Jose Guillen in KC, Adam Dunn in DC, Adrain Beltre in SEA).

But now, I think Tampa Bay has shown, this is possible, and it can work (and oh yeah, they are in a way tougher division to compete than the AL Central). So I am happy that if Cleveland is going to take this route, they are going to go all in, and they at least have a solid plan of action, which too many small to mid-level market teams don’t have.

This might pay off, it might not. I personally think Shapiro and Wedge need to admit that they essentially failed with this last rebuilding project, and that one playoff appearance was not acceptable. But I am willing to give this team a couple years and see what comes of it. If we win the World Series in 2013, are people still going to be saying we didn’t get enough for Lee? Maybe we did, maybe we didn’t, but on this day, we have no way of knowing.

I’ll be honest….I’ve been secretly wanting Victor to be a player/manager. And I want it bad.

the best coaches in baseball who were previous players are usually catchers I will say that much

I wanted to share some analysis from Christina Kahrl of Baseball Prospectus:

“Lou Marson? The future backup isn’t the motivating factor here; how can we forget the Indians already added Carlos Santana in last season’s swap that made Casey Blake a Dodger? No, the reason the Tribe can and should hold out for good stuff for V-Mart is because he’s worth it, a catcher with a .294 Equivalent Average who should yield up a pitching prospect as good as if not better than Carlos Carrasco from the Lee deal. If the Red Sox don’t yield that up, there’s nothing that doesn’t say the Indians hold onto their quality slugger to keep splitting his time between the plate and first base, and then play for better stakes at the Winter Meetings.”

I guess all the things Victor HAS accomplished all these years is pretty moot then, huh? 3 time All-Star, Silver Slugger winner – and not to mention the heart of team. But then again, we did just give up 2008’s Cy Young winner for 4 broken down minor leaguers. So maybe we’ll be lucky to get a bag of popcorn for Vic?

AC, I still don’t see how Marson makes sense even if they move Victor. As I said on another post, they could move Victor and Shoppach and still have adequate depth at C, I don’t see how they can’t prefer Torregas to Marson, and Santana has much greater potential than both and should be at AAA now. This deal would only have made sense if it included the Red Sox, and let’s say Martinez, Peralta, and Marson go to the Red Sox for Bucholz, they could sweeten that deal from the Red Sox perspective by inluding Wood, and eating the money on his contract for this year, or R Perez, Crowe, Barfield, whoever the Sox might want. Then the Indians get Carrasco and Bucholz, the Sox get players who can help now and in the future, the Phillies still make out like bandits, everyone comes out ahead.

I am personally in favor of trading Victor. Otherwise we’re left with another year of rotating catchers and 1st basemen. Moving Peralta and Martinez accomplishes the cost cutting goal, and the Indians could potentially field as good or better of an offense after making these moves. Victor is only really valuable as a full time catcher, and it doesn’t seem he can be that at this stage in his career. I’d rather go with Marte at 3b, Laporta full time 3b, and Torregas or Santana at C, then have Victor splitting time at C with … who, Gimenez, Torregas, and splitting time at 1b with … Laporta? Part time play for guys like Laporta and Santana doesn’t work. Marte has potential to be better than Peralta, Laporta has the potential to hit as well as Martinez, and Torregas/Santana could do better than the part time versions of Garko and Shoppach. It’s a gamble to go with Marte, Laporta and the young catchers, but it’s a gamble that can work … I wouldn’t even mind the Lee trade if they’d gotten someone decent in return … the acquisition of Marson worries me, it makes me think they have a different and much worse plan for the future roster

If the Indians are counting on Carlos Carrasco to be a key contributor to the team next year and beyond, and if he’s the head case he’s reported to be, then they should keep his countryman Victor Martinez around to mentor him.

Maybe the Marson acquisition means that Kelly Shoppach will be dealt. I don’t imagine the front offices around the league are as down on Kelly as Indians Fandom is, considering his great year last year. He might be worth some low-level prospect love from some team.

AC, love the new title note!

To play off your title AC, I think you should change it up just a little bit. “The Cleveland Indians: Changing the Slogan of Cleveland from ‘There’s always next year’ to ‘There’s always the year after next’.”

ESPN claims the Indians are still talking to the Sox about a trade involving Bucholz and Martinez and a 3rd team and some prospects… if the Indians can land Bucholz I’d be happy, as long as they don’t give up Santana, Brantley or Laporta in the process

Two questions:

1. Do you still do the Tribe mailbag, or has this blog replaced it? 2. What ever happened to Josh Barfield? We traded Andrew Brown and Kevin Kouzmanoff to get him, and basically the only thing he’s done is occasionally pinch-run. With all these people being traded and injuries in the past couple months and people like Kelly Shoppach stinking it up, you’d think Barfield might at least get a LITTLE bit of playing time. But no, we keep calling up minor leaguers instead. It’s pathetic. Is this yet another result of Wedge’s wisdom?

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